@aescling see that's why i'm trying dialectics
@gaditb sure, i agree with this, although i don't want to completely erase the distinction between games and other forms of social rituals, which are tools for producing certain things
like i do think there is a differentiator between Dwarf Fortress and like, praying the rosary, even though they are both structured events with rules which are used to produce some kind of experiential “thing”
i don't think “fun”, in layman's terms, is quite right for what it is games do, but i’m also not sure we have a better word for it
@gaditb actually i wonder if the DF redefinition of “fun” doesn’t in fact fall under the umbrella of “using the tool correctly” (to have fun, because either way you are having experiences)
@gaditb probably correct but i'm actually more interested in how people approach games than what they are, and this is a good binary for testing that :P
@coriander sure, but are those rules a tool you use or do they form an experience you submit to
“magic circle” and most participatory theory leans in the direction of experience. we can do criticism on games because they produce experiences we have a critical framework to analyse. this is a convenient framework because it allows us to preserve concepts like “authorship” and “universality”.
but i think there is also room to think of games as tools. in particular i think there are people who have used the tools of games wrong, had a consequently bad experience, and then blamed the game instead of thinking critically about how they were using it. this is, i think, an entirely separate conversation from games as crafted/authored experiences?
i mean on one level i realize i'm just reinvoking the ludology/narratology debate here but i think perhaps that question was resolved a bit too neatly the first time
i figured this out btw xsltproc just doesn't know that HTML elements have a namespace in 2022; you have to null-namespace them
uspol
@coriander @vultureculture there was a piece ironically in the new york times about this a while back, by an old professor who was tired of this happening
basically their thesis was that prior to like the 90s, the only way you could get a lot of people in one place was by being really good at organizing
now you can do it without any organization at all. it's no longer threatening
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