@aescling @wallhackio @The_T also worth noting that i was a couple games deep with them. they weren't doing shit

@monorail @wallhackio @The_T i would fair in that situation

@aescling @wallhackio @The_T maaaaybe that hits but it doesn't tipper for sure

@monorail @wallhackio @The_T i just want to not get hit lol

@aescling @monorail @The_T three outcomes:
1) you hit the fair and the falcon returns to stage. we have a soft reset
2) you whiff the fair and die
3) you have a weird trade and probably die

this is a good situation for falcon

@wallhackio @monorail @The_T k

@aescling @monorail @The_T are you dismissing the argument entirely?

@wallhackio @monorail @The_T falcon has no good reason to be double jumping out into the void in this situation other than that the opponent just won’t respond if you do some horseshit

@aescling @monorail @The_T cat you either win the game or get a soft reset that still favors you how is that not a good situation for the falcon

@aescling @monorail @The_T cat you've played marth in melee, brawl and ultimate. marth's fair is not an active hitbox. you have to be particular in where you're hitting it and timing it to land it. it is not an easy thing to hit someone consistently with fair in disadvantage, you have to get the timing just right especially if they're below you. its not as simple as "just fair lol" for the marth

@wallhackio @monorail @The_T you are seriously overestimating how big a deal this is

@aescling @monorail @The_T its only somewhat reliable to hit with the fair if the falcon is going to hit you asap and you read this. if you're wrong you die. how is this difficult to understand

@wallhackio as soon as falcon double jumps while holding furward into the void, they sacrifice the safety of the pussition while greatly simplifying the demands on the marth fur defense. that is the purroblem. falcon is making a pussition-worsening move in a good pussition. they should not be in this situation in the furst place

@aescling but the falcon has all sorts of time to choose when to attack. the falcon doesn't have to upb immediately. the falcon could wait a bit and upb. unless you feel you could consistently react to the animation then you're specifically reading the timing that the falcon will upB and if you're wrong, you die

@wallhackio they are not that far from ledge?

@aescling what do you mean by that?

@wallhackio if marth keeps holding furward they will land on stage

@aescling what are the implications of this?

@wallhackio falcon has to do something fast

@aescling but upb goes high and if the marth swats to early you get the marth

@wallhackio what timing mixup does falcon have? falcon drops like a rock and marth floats? they have a small window to falcon dive? that is why the defensive calculus is simple fur the marth here?

why are you so insistent on defending a needless risk? just land and stage and then jump out?

@wallhackio you are extremely stubbornly misinterpurreting the trees when the forest is right there, this is very frustrating to argue about

@aescling if you delay by five frames from when the video upB was executed it would still hit

@wallhackio observe: the forest

@aescling im not saying that landing back down and playing the situation "normally" is wrong but the marth was in a compromising position even if you chase the marth down

@aescling although, then again, i could be mistaken at how forgiving the hitbox for upb landing is in melee. which would change my calculus here a lot if its more finnicky that i think it is

@wallhackio only frame 13 (furst active) is generous

@aescling ok i realize now that the fundamental thing you're saying is that it is better overall not to chase the marth because it adds unnecessary risk. because it's an extremely strong position if you don't chase the marth. which is probably right

i was saying that the situation still overall favors the falcon when you chase the marth. which might be true. even if it were, i would probably agree that it is not as favorable as landing back on stage and playing the edgeguard in a more standard way

so there's some confusion in language here because when you said it was bad you meant it was suboptimal, like in chess when a play turns a +12 position into a +6. i thought you meant it became a negative situation for falcon

@wallhackio @aescling @The_T and also, like. it wasn't my best option, i could have done something safer, but i have to practice things i like doing if i want to be able to do them :P